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	<title>Comments on: Agile is dead</title>
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	<link>http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/06/23/agile-is-dead/</link>
	<description>programming idiom and methodology</description>
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		<title>By: matt mcknight</title>
		<link>http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/06/23/agile-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>matt mcknight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 05:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=400#comment-258</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s 2x funny, because SOA has been &quot;meaning less&quot; for years now as well. Now, when people say they are doing Agile, you have to follow that up with a series of questions...

Sadly, most people have reduced agile to the &quot;value responding to change over following a plan&quot; aspect because that is closest in meaning to the English word &#039;agile&#039;. In it&#039;s most degenerate form it simply becomes, &quot;don&#039;t plan (just buy our stuff)&quot;.  This is why Scrum and XP don&#039;t suffer the same fate as much, they don&#039;t have a dictionary definition to fall back on.

Now, logically speaking, Agile isn&#039;t dead, of course.  More broadly we can say that people are poorly applying the label.

What is SOA really anyway? It&#039;s really a form of code reuse which differs from library oriented code reuse in that you connect to a running instance of the reused code over the network, thus creating unnecessary live interdependencies between systems.  Or is it that systems should have well defined, technology stack independent, APIs to share data using verbose formats?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s 2x funny, because SOA has been &#8220;meaning less&#8221; for years now as well. Now, when people say they are doing Agile, you have to follow that up with a series of questions&#8230;</p>
<p>Sadly, most people have reduced agile to the &#8220;value responding to change over following a plan&#8221; aspect because that is closest in meaning to the English word &#8216;agile&#8217;. In it&#8217;s most degenerate form it simply becomes, &#8220;don&#8217;t plan (just buy our stuff)&#8221;.  This is why Scrum and XP don&#8217;t suffer the same fate as much, they don&#8217;t have a dictionary definition to fall back on.</p>
<p>Now, logically speaking, Agile isn&#8217;t dead, of course.  More broadly we can say that people are poorly applying the label.</p>
<p>What is SOA really anyway? It&#8217;s really a form of code reuse which differs from library oriented code reuse in that you connect to a running instance of the reused code over the network, thus creating unnecessary live interdependencies between systems.  Or is it that systems should have well defined, technology stack independent, APIs to share data using verbose formats?</p>
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		<title>By: ferrisoxide</title>
		<link>http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/06/23/agile-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-248</link>
		<dc:creator>ferrisoxide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 23:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=400#comment-248</guid>
		<description>Man.. something is stirring in the meme pool..

Michel: Bingo! SOA takes over *everything*, even where it&#039;s not needed. Even the industrial automation industry is afflicted with the SOA disease, but some friends of mine and I are fighting back. See http://rest-pca.org

Franco: You&#039;re absolutely on the mark. The old Toyota Production System that sparked off &#039;lean&#039; (and indirectly &#039;agile&#039;) actively discourages complex, expensive, technological solutions in favour of stuff that just works - preferring systems that give feedback to a process without imposing too much of an administrative overhead. Who said we need all these tricky tools to manage our development processes? I&#039;m giving up on Mingle, Jira, etc and just going back to the old card system - knowing I can walk into the development room and see exactly where the team is up to. See http://rubyredbricks.com/2009/6/26/requirements-are-transient-artifacts

Sorry for putting the links in here Scott, but I think you&#039;ve started something and the momentum needs to keep on building.

Ladies and gentlemen, may I suggest that a revolution is underway. It may not be televised, but it will be blogged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man.. something is stirring in the meme pool..</p>
<p>Michel: Bingo! SOA takes over *everything*, even where it&#8217;s not needed. Even the industrial automation industry is afflicted with the SOA disease, but some friends of mine and I are fighting back. See <a href="http://rest-pca.org" rel="nofollow">http://rest-pca.org</a></p>
<p>Franco: You&#8217;re absolutely on the mark. The old Toyota Production System that sparked off &#8216;lean&#8217; (and indirectly &#8216;agile&#8217;) actively discourages complex, expensive, technological solutions in favour of stuff that just works &#8211; preferring systems that give feedback to a process without imposing too much of an administrative overhead. Who said we need all these tricky tools to manage our development processes? I&#8217;m giving up on Mingle, Jira, etc and just going back to the old card system &#8211; knowing I can walk into the development room and see exactly where the team is up to. See <a href="http://rubyredbricks.com/2009/6/26/requirements-are-transient-artifacts" rel="nofollow">http://rubyredbricks.com/2009/6/26/requirements-are-transient-artifacts</a></p>
<p>Sorry for putting the links in here Scott, but I think you&#8217;ve started something and the momentum needs to keep on building.</p>
<p>Ladies and gentlemen, may I suggest that a revolution is underway. It may not be televised, but it will be blogged.</p>
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		<title>By: Franco Martinig</title>
		<link>http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/06/23/agile-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-247</link>
		<dc:creator>Franco Martinig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 20:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=400#comment-247</guid>
		<description>Software is &quot;also&quot; an industry. Some people will assess their importance by the budget they manage/spent or the price of the tool they sell. If you say to your manager: I want to implement a new process for the software development department and I just need to spend 10 dollars/euros buying 3x5 cards, most of the time he will think that something is wrong with you ;o)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Software is &#8220;also&#8221; an industry. Some people will assess their importance by the budget they manage/spent or the price of the tool they sell. If you say to your manager: I want to implement a new process for the software development department and I just need to spend 10 dollars/euros buying 3&#215;5 cards, most of the time he will think that something is wrong with you ;o)</p>
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		<title>By: Michel Ozzello</title>
		<link>http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/06/23/agile-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>Michel Ozzello</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=400#comment-246</guid>
		<description>SOA (in the way it is being implemented by a lot of vendors) is the exact opposite of Agile. They promote the idea of starting at the integration level to create integration services, then - when you&#039;re done- move upwards to create the business services, then -when you&#039;re done here- move upwards again and start building the composite apps.
To do this well, you should know exactly what integration services you will need to create all the business services you need to create the composite applications. Doesn&#039;t that sound waterfall to you? A lot of analysis gathering, months (or even years) of implementation of stuff that will never get into the hands of users.... and after 18 months they pull out a composite application... success! NOT!

An Agile approach is what will save SOA implementations from doom. Starting with a limited set of requirements to quickly create the services-chain that will allow you to deploy an application that you can give users, gather feedback and then fine-tune, extends, create another app, and so on.

Although I also feel that the Agile word is being killed by misuse, Agile per se is not dead and will not be anytime soon. How to talk about SOA and Agile? I&#039;d say that &quot;SOA is dead - Agile to the rescue&quot; could be a good title :)

Michel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SOA (in the way it is being implemented by a lot of vendors) is the exact opposite of Agile. They promote the idea of starting at the integration level to create integration services, then &#8211; when you&#8217;re done- move upwards to create the business services, then -when you&#8217;re done here- move upwards again and start building the composite apps.<br />
To do this well, you should know exactly what integration services you will need to create all the business services you need to create the composite applications. Doesn&#8217;t that sound waterfall to you? A lot of analysis gathering, months (or even years) of implementation of stuff that will never get into the hands of users&#8230;. and after 18 months they pull out a composite application&#8230; success! NOT!</p>
<p>An Agile approach is what will save SOA implementations from doom. Starting with a limited set of requirements to quickly create the services-chain that will allow you to deploy an application that you can give users, gather feedback and then fine-tune, extends, create another app, and so on.</p>
<p>Although I also feel that the Agile word is being killed by misuse, Agile per se is not dead and will not be anytime soon. How to talk about SOA and Agile? I&#8217;d say that &#8220;SOA is dead &#8211; Agile to the rescue&#8221; could be a good title <img src='http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Michel</p>
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		<title>By: Scot Mcphee</title>
		<link>http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/06/23/agile-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-245</link>
		<dc:creator>Scot Mcphee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 02:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=400#comment-245</guid>
		<description>&quot;Agile is dead. Long live Agile!&quot;

I considered using that very title for the piece but went for the more fatalistic short-hand version after I had finished writing it. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Agile is dead. Long live Agile!&#8221;</p>
<p>I considered using that very title for the piece but went for the more fatalistic short-hand version after I had finished writing it. <img src='http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: ferrisoxide</title>
		<link>http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/06/23/agile-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-243</link>
		<dc:creator>ferrisoxide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:38:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=400#comment-243</guid>
		<description>Agile started as a grass roots movement, against the backdrop of the corporate nonsense of RUP, waterfall, etc. Time to wrest it back.

Agile is dead. Long live Agile!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agile started as a grass roots movement, against the backdrop of the corporate nonsense of RUP, waterfall, etc. Time to wrest it back.</p>
<p>Agile is dead. Long live Agile!</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin C. Horn</title>
		<link>http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/06/23/agile-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-242</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin C. Horn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=400#comment-242</guid>
		<description>Yes, it&#039;s frustrating to have something that you&#039;re proud to be associated with prostituted for personal gain by people who really have no clue about what they&#039;re destroying. It happens to just about every good or innovative idea at some point. Some people get on the bandwagon, and some people just ride the coattails. 

What this really means is that the concept that you&#039;ve known for years is great has finally received the recognition it deserves. But along with that upside comes the downside: unwanted imitation, where copycats can not only dilute the meaning of a terrific concept, but could also sully its good name forever. Basically, you have no choice but to ride it out for a while until the imitators find a new buzzword to start leeching the life force out of. That&#039;s when the &quot;XYZ&quot; that you love so much becomes &quot;XYZ Classic&quot; or &quot;The Real XYZ.&quot; And even if its good name is irreparably damaged, as Jin Chun mentions above, the same practices can be implemented without ever referring to their names at all.

What happens with really strong concepts, though, is that they weather the storm and, if need be, reinvent themselves. The word &quot;Agile&quot; might&#039;ve taken a pretty decent hit in your vendor&#039;s presentation, but that really just means that Agile is very much alive and and will come out stronger for it no matter what it&#039;s called.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it&#8217;s frustrating to have something that you&#8217;re proud to be associated with prostituted for personal gain by people who really have no clue about what they&#8217;re destroying. It happens to just about every good or innovative idea at some point. Some people get on the bandwagon, and some people just ride the coattails. </p>
<p>What this really means is that the concept that you&#8217;ve known for years is great has finally received the recognition it deserves. But along with that upside comes the downside: unwanted imitation, where copycats can not only dilute the meaning of a terrific concept, but could also sully its good name forever. Basically, you have no choice but to ride it out for a while until the imitators find a new buzzword to start leeching the life force out of. That&#8217;s when the &#8220;XYZ&#8221; that you love so much becomes &#8220;XYZ Classic&#8221; or &#8220;The Real XYZ.&#8221; And even if its good name is irreparably damaged, as Jin Chun mentions above, the same practices can be implemented without ever referring to their names at all.</p>
<p>What happens with really strong concepts, though, is that they weather the storm and, if need be, reinvent themselves. The word &#8220;Agile&#8221; might&#8217;ve taken a pretty decent hit in your vendor&#8217;s presentation, but that really just means that Agile is very much alive and and will come out stronger for it no matter what it&#8217;s called.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul W. Homer</title>
		<link>http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/06/23/agile-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-241</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul W. Homer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=400#comment-241</guid>
		<description>So, you can imagine my disappointment and building frustration as I&#039;ve watched this happen again and again over twenty years, with a long string of technologies, movements and methodologies. Some things never change, do they?

Someday, when we get beyond all of this, we might actually be able to replace our COBOL mainframes with something else that is actually better. Someday.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, you can imagine my disappointment and building frustration as I&#8217;ve watched this happen again and again over twenty years, with a long string of technologies, movements and methodologies. Some things never change, do they?</p>
<p>Someday, when we get beyond all of this, we might actually be able to replace our COBOL mainframes with something else that is actually better. Someday.</p>
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		<title>By: ferrisoxide</title>
		<link>http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/06/23/agile-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-239</link>
		<dc:creator>ferrisoxide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=400#comment-239</guid>
		<description>Yeah, how long until we can drop all the monikers and just be able to say to each other &quot;we just get stuff done and make the customer happy&quot;? Though naturally a few weeks after that we&#039;ll be talking about the Getting Stuff Done methodology and taking advanced courses in Making The Customer Happy.

*Sigh*

But yes.. the SOA vendor seems to have no shame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, how long until we can drop all the monikers and just be able to say to each other &#8220;we just get stuff done and make the customer happy&#8221;? Though naturally a few weeks after that we&#8217;ll be talking about the Getting Stuff Done methodology and taking advanced courses in Making The Customer Happy.</p>
<p>*Sigh*</p>
<p>But yes.. the SOA vendor seems to have no shame.</p>
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		<title>By: Chase Saunders</title>
		<link>http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/06/23/agile-is-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-238</link>
		<dc:creator>Chase Saunders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=400#comment-238</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s called cooptation.  Anything good gets diluted by institutions until all the goodness is sucked out.  They did it to the hippies too...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s called cooptation.  Anything good gets diluted by institutions until all the goodness is sucked out.  They did it to the hippies too&#8230;</p>
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