Comments on: Is Java “architecture” irrelevant? http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/01/30/is-java-architecture-irrelevant/ programming idiom and methodology Tue, 24 Aug 2010 08:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: john smith http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/01/30/is-java-architecture-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-43 john smith Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:50:51 +0000 http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=113#comment-43 Just because JEE has tons of APIs doesn't force you to use them all. We build applications with Tomcat, Struts 1, OJB and Spring and little else. Our applications can be built fast and work. We don't have training issues. We get the job done. I agree that if Sun keeps making language changes, it will harm the language. Young developers feel that if things don't keep changing, it's not good. Experienced developers realize that these changes aren't necessary and saving a few characters typing in code is so minor in the whole application development process that it's not worth it. Just because JEE has tons of APIs doesn’t force you to use them all. We build applications with Tomcat, Struts 1, OJB and Spring and little else. Our applications can be built fast and work. We don’t have training issues. We get the job done.

I agree that if Sun keeps making language changes, it will harm the language. Young developers feel that if things don’t keep changing, it’s not good. Experienced developers realize that these changes aren’t necessary and saving a few characters typing in code is so minor in the whole application development process that it’s not worth it.

]]> By: Scot Mcphee http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/01/30/is-java-architecture-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-42 Scot Mcphee Fri, 30 Jan 2009 07:10:02 +0000 http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=113#comment-42 Also the vendors certainly aren't helping with their super-bloato-products promising all sorts of nirvana if you'll only swallow their $100,000 graphically-programmed kool-aid. Also the vendors certainly aren’t helping with their super-bloato-products promising all sorts of nirvana if you’ll only swallow their $100,000 graphically-programmed kool-aid.

]]> By: Scot Mcphee http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/01/30/is-java-architecture-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-41 Scot Mcphee Fri, 30 Jan 2009 07:08:07 +0000 http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=113#comment-41 Simon, Most certainly the Java EE stack is full of bloat. However I think the number of competing open source solutions to be a blessing, not a curse. I think it's nearly always possible to find a suitable implementation fairly quickly for any given task, and the choice actually facilitates that. However I do share the concern that Java EE is becoming too cumbersome and tied up in 'standardisation' and it's not really helping Java in the marketplace. Additionally I would say that many of the new language features mooted in version 7, combined with the half-baked features from version 5, are also doing real and vital damage to the language. (Annotated, generic-using autoboxed code looks more unreadable by the day). However, that is probably a discussion left for another day. Simon,

Most certainly the Java EE stack is full of bloat. However I think the number of competing open source solutions to be a blessing, not a curse. I think it’s nearly always possible to find a suitable implementation fairly quickly for any given task, and the choice actually facilitates that.

However I do share the concern that Java EE is becoming too cumbersome and tied up in ‘standardisation’ and it’s not really helping Java in the marketplace.

Additionally I would say that many of the new language features mooted in version 7, combined with the half-baked features from version 5, are also doing real and vital damage to the language. (Annotated, generic-using autoboxed code looks more unreadable by the day). However, that is probably a discussion left for another day.

]]> By: Simon Mittag http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/2009/01/30/is-java-architecture-irrelevant/comment-page-1/#comment-40 Simon Mittag Fri, 30 Jan 2009 06:52:53 +0000 http://www.crazymcphee.net/x/?p=113#comment-40 Hi Scott, I take your point about architecture not necessarily being framework choice. As I've already posted, I think being less prescriptive is actually doing more for you. What I meant by irrelevant Java architecture in the title is the internal state of the whole Java EE stack, both JSR and Open Source, i.e. how many MVC frameworks and XML standards does the world need? In a simpler environment, the developer would be free from such choice, which in most cases should be a good thing actually. I guess the main part I am a bit hung up with is that with problems come solutions, come generalization and standards to make things easier (or OSS alternatives). However all that happens is that these standards are being added to a huge existing pile. Nobody ever takes anything out (difficult with OSS), so while we attempt to make things easier we actually make them more difficult to understand and they begin to disagree with each other. This may be just the natural effects of aging though? I'm not sure. Cheers, Simon Hi Scott,

I take your point about architecture not necessarily being framework choice. As I’ve already posted, I think being less prescriptive is actually doing more for you.

What I meant by irrelevant Java architecture in the title is the internal state of the whole Java EE stack, both JSR and Open Source, i.e. how many MVC frameworks and XML standards does the world need?

In a simpler environment, the developer would be free from such choice, which in most cases should be a good thing actually.

I guess the main part I am a bit hung up with is that with problems come solutions, come generalization and standards to make things easier (or OSS alternatives). However all that happens is that these standards are being added to a huge existing pile. Nobody ever takes anything out (difficult with OSS), so while we attempt to make things easier we actually make them more difficult to understand and they begin to disagree with each other.

This may be just the natural effects of aging though? I’m not sure.

Cheers,

Simon

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